Bye bye VST2

[Music Engineer]

there indeed don't seem to be a lot of JUCE-based LV2 plugins out there. Maybe the format has still some sort of reputation of being a niche, Linux-only thing.

Or maybe it's just completely superfluous and irrelevant to the plugin market?

The irrelevance to the market seems to be very much compatible and aligned with the (ostensible) Linux-only thing since the plugin market is taking place almost exclusively on Windows and MacOS because these OSes dominate the desktop computer market. But superfluous? That's like saying Linux is a superfluous operating system because we already have Windows and MacOS - completely ignoring the crucial difference. Or like saying that MIDI was superfluous because there already existed proprietary data exchange formats for musical instruments before it.

[sQeetz]

To be honest, I've never heard about LV2... Who develops for that format?

[Music Engineer]

To be honest, I've never heard about LV2... Who develops for that format?

Mostly the Linux community. There, it is kind of the go-to format. The native standard format, so to speak. Maybe a bit like AU on Mac. Unlike AU and Mac, the LV2 format itself is not really tied to the Linux platform in any way, though. It just never gained much traction outside this world.

[machinesworking]

To be honest, I've never heard about LV2... Who develops for that format?

Mostly the Linux community. There, it is kind of the go-to format. Maybe a bit like AU on Mac. Unlike AU and Mac, the LV2 format itself is not really tied to the Linux platform in any way, though. It just never gained much traction outside this world.

Yeah it's a weird comparison to make though since AU supposedly "could" be ported to Windows and Linux like LV2 could be ported, but CLAP was designed from the start to work on all three.

[jamcat]

there indeed don't seem to be a lot of JUCE-based LV2 plugins out there. Maybe the format has still some sort of reputation of being a niche, Linux-only thing.

Or maybe it's just completely superfluous and irrelevant to the plugin market?

The irrelevance to the market seems to be very much compatible and aligned with the (ostensible) Linux-only thing since the plugin market is taking place almost exclusively on Windows and MacOS because these OSes dominate the desktop computer market. But superfluous? That's like saying Linux is a superfluous operating system because we already have Windows and MacOS - completely ignoring the crucial difference. Or like saying that MIDI was superfluous because there already existed proprietary data exchange formats for musical instruments before it.

Well I mean it's superfluous on Windows and MacOS since both have a few standards that everyone already hits, which is why no one bothers supporting it, I guess.

[wikter]

Well, major plugin developers adopted VST3 quite quickly.
It was mostly small indie developers who didn't.
And I think CLAP will be the opposite.

VST3 was released in 2006. Major developers joined around 2008. The benefits of VST3 were minimal. Some Big "indies" like Uhe/Fxpansion/Linplug took a while. There wasn't Albino VST3 until... 2023.
Clap not coming from a previous standard-grade format is getting better support than VST3 had.
The Steinberg-Yamaha driven company is a shadow of the early independent years. Steinberg Cubase VST5 had Fxpansion, MDA and Wizoo aboard. How many top plug-in developers works with Steinberg today?

[diroxe7660]

Ultimately, it is in everyone's best interest, developers and users alike, to support one of the genuinely free standards.

If developers get cold feet and start removing VST2 support from their DAWs because of legal issues resulting from their signing of the VST3 license, the long term viability of your very large and very expensive VST3 plugin collection is automatically called into question too.

Absolutely no one can legally prevent your DAW from supporting CLAP. Your DAW's VST3 support is entirely at the mercy of SB.

Nothing's stopping SB from transitioning to a subscription model for the VST3 SDK. If you signed the VST3 license, you're legally on the hook to start paying the subscription six months in or you must cease distributing and supporting VST3s.

As a user, you should ask developers for CLAP support, not for them to transition to VST3.

[machinesworking]

Well, major plugin developers adopted VST3 quite quickly.
It was mostly small indie developers who didn't.
And I think CLAP will be the opposite.

VST3 was released in 2006. Major developers joined around 2008. The benefits of VST3 were minimal. Some Big "indies" like Uhe/Fxpansion/Linplug took a while. There wasn't Albino VST3 until... 2023.

Even what you paint is optimistic. IK, Arturia, UA, and NI were most definitely not VST3 ready by 2008, I think the only major developer that was would be Waves, and they use their own proprietary wrapper for their plugins. That was what made him saying that so hilarious. Most of these companies weren't VST3 compatible until 10+ years after it's introduction, NI didn't really complete the transition until 2022.

[MirkoVanHauten]

Not sure why we're even debating this anymore. Fact is CLAP's adoption rate is much quicker than VST3's. But what's even more important: it leaves devs & customers much happier If that's what triggers the trolls in here, so be it.

[machinesworking]

Not sure why we're even debating this anymore. Fact is CLAP's adoption rate is much quicker than VST3's. But what's even more important: it leaves devs & customers much happier If that's what triggers the trolls in here, so be it.

My only complaint with CLAP besides it being 15 years later than it should have been is I want my main underdog DAW to be CLAP compatible, and I feel like MOTU isn't going to make Digital Performer CLAP compatible until Studio One and Live are on board. I'm a Bitwig fan, I just want my dinosaur DAWs on board too. We're not getting Logic or Cubase, but DP, Studio One, and Sonar are possible.

[wikter]

Complaint campaign? Or Hype campaign?

[defiantnerd]

I'm a Bitwig fan, I just want my dinosaur DAWs on board too. We're not getting Logic or Cubase, but DP, Studio One, and Sonar are possible.

In the meantime, the clap-wrapper project allows you to use any CLAP plugin in Logic and Cubase. It is very lightweight (<500k binary size) and and maps all functionality available to AU and VST3.

[sQeetz]

In the meantime, the clap-wrapper project allows you to use any CLAP plugin in Logic and Cubase. It is very lightweight (<500k binary size) and and maps all functionality available to AU and VST3.

Well... nice, I guess? But since there are no CLAP only plugins I believe it being kinda useless (yet)...

[Super Piano Hater 64]

In the meantime, the clap-wrapper project allows you to use any CLAP plugin in Logic and Cubase. It is very lightweight (<500k binary size) and and maps all functionality available to AU and VST3.

Well... nice, I guess? But since there are no CLAP only plugins I believe it being kinda useless (yet)...

None that are strictly CLAP-only, but certainly some which aren't available in VST. Most of these, for example: https://nakst.itch.io

[defiantnerd]

In the meantime, the clap-wrapper project allows you to use any CLAP plugin in Logic and Cubase. It is very lightweight (<500k binary size) and and maps all functionality available to AU and VST3.

Well... nice, I guess? But since there are no CLAP only plugins I believe it being kinda useless (yet)...

The topic was about Logic and Cubase that may never support CLAP. But if you (as a developer) choose to focus on writing just a CLAP (which is nice and easy) you don't need to bother about VST3 and AU since you can just use the clap-wrapper to provide those versions.

But even if you are using JUCE or similar frameworks, using the clap-wrapper has some advantages since he supports VST3 way better than the JUCE equivalent (MPE, Note Expressions etc.) We already tested this with Surge XT.