All About MIDI Polyphonic Expression (MPE)

[WasteLand]

A quick question for seasoned MPE users.

What is your DAW of choice?

Bitwig Studio is of course always mentioned. but Cubase, Reaper or Live 11, are equally capable.
(with the key difference; the devices/instruments in Bitwig are MPE, like the Poly Grid.. per voice modulation. the effects; not (if i am right..). well some instruments in Live 11 are also MPE, but not all, and Cubase has also MPE capable instruments... so... well...)

so; i didn't chose, i own them all... it is a personal choice. whichever rocks your MPE...

[pdxindy]

Bitwig Studio is of course always mentioned. but Cubase, Reaper or Live 11, are equally capable.

That is not correct.

Live 11's MPE implementation is incomplete. It does not record the midi channel data of each played note. So there are various MPE scenarios where what you play (record), will not play back the same as how you played it.

[machinesworking]

Bitwig Studio is of course always mentioned. but Cubase, Reaper or Live 11, are equally capable.

That is not correct.

Live 11's MPE implementation is incomplete. It does not record the midi channel data of each played note. So there are various MPE scenarios where what you play (record), will not play back the same as how you played it.

Yeah that doesn't sound right, but it's easily checked. I cannot imagine that Ableton would implement MPE without channel data being separated out. This might be a bug in individual setups. Anyway off to sleep, I'll check it out tomorrow.

[pdxindy]

As of version 4.3, Bitwig officially supports the CLAP plugin format. Up until now, Bitwig's per voice modulators only worked with Bitwig Instruments. Now CLAP plugins have the possibility to also work per voice with Bitwig's modulators.

Surge has a CLAP version and it supports polyphonic parameter modulation. U-he has public CLAP betas of ACE, Diva and Hive. Eventually all the u-he synths will support CLAP. CLAP opens up a new range of fun and interesting MPE possibilities with the plugins that support it.

[Echoes in the Attic]

Bitwig Studio is of course always mentioned. but Cubase, Reaper or Live 11, are equally capable.

That is not correct.

Live 11's MPE implementation is incomplete. It does not record the midi channel data of each played note. So there are various MPE scenarios where what you play (record), will not play back the same as how you played it.

Yeah that doesn't sound right, but it's easily checked. I cannot imagine that Ableton would implement MPE without channel data being separated out. This might be a bug in individual setups. Anyway off to sleep, I'll check it out tomorrow.

I can imagine it, because it's what we went through with Bitwig for a couple years. Took a while for them to actually record the midi channel with notes after the initial mpe implementation.

[machinesworking]

I can imagine it, because it's what we went through with Bitwig for a couple years. Took a while for them to actually record the midi channel with notes after the initial mpe implementation.

I came to bitwig v3 so it all seemed super solid to me, my only complaint is it still doesn't do the standard Upper and Lower MPE channelizing as a separate thing, you have to set up each track with it's own MIDI restrictions in order to get that.

I'm seeing what pdxindy was talking about though, Ableton doesn't open up the channelizing to us end users but it most definitely has to be doing it to get separate pitch bends for each note. I of course believe him that it can cause issues. Also raises the question as to if they're actually assigning 15 channels to a track with a master channel as well like it's specced? Especially if it's causing issues with peoples setups?

Makes me feel better about my choices, DP has great MPE implementation and besides not supporting upper/lower MPE spec, Bitwigs couldn't be easier.

[edited to add that Bitwigs per voice is another bonus.]

[Dimetil]

Isn't MPE just a MIDI reorganisation and interpretation of the data protocol?
Where the interpretation is done by the destination software: DAW, synth-plugin, etc.?

[pdxindy]

I'm seeing what pdxindy was talking about though, Ableton doesn't open up the channelizing to us end users but it most definitely has to be doing it to get separate pitch bends for each note.

If I set my Linnstrument to only send midi channels 1-4 to play my Elektron A4 as 4 voice MPE, Ableton plays back 1-16. So Live isn't recording channel data but hiding it from the user.

[pdxindy]

I can imagine it, because it's what we went through with Bitwig for a couple years. Took a while for them to actually record the midi channel with notes after the initial mpe implementation.

Yup... us MPE peeps made a fuss about the lack of channel data in Bitwig back then.

Now in Bitwig, every note having a user editable midi channel is super useful. I use the midi channels constantly, even for non-MPE stuff. For example, it's an easy workflow to use channels to control which clips/notes are affected by specific modulators. Then that sort of stuff can be controlled realtime and per voice with my Linnstrument... combining complex prepared modulations with realtime per voice control. It's goes beyond just MPE and the initial concept of expressive playing.

You can do a variety of unique MPE stuff in Bitwig that's not possible in other DAW's. For MPE, Bitwig is unrivaled. And now with CLAP, that is no longer just with Bitwig instruments, but any CLAP plugin that supports poly parameter modulation.

ACE for example (CLAP version) is now a powerful MPE that can do things that even a dedicated MPE synth like Equator cannot.

[machinesworking]

I can imagine it, because it's what we went through with Bitwig for a couple years. Took a while for them to actually record the midi channel with notes after the initial mpe implementation.

Yup... us MPE peeps made a fuss about the lack of channel data in Bitwig back then.

Now in Bitwig, every note having a user editable midi channel is super useful. I use the midi channels constantly, even for non-MPE stuff. For example, it's an easy workflow to use channels to control which clips/notes are affected by specific modulators. Then that sort of stuff can be controlled realtime and per voice with my Linnstrument... combining complex prepared modulations with realtime per voice control. It's goes beyond just MPE and the initial concept of expressive playing.

You can do a variety of unique MPE stuff in Bitwig that's not possible in other DAW's. For MPE, Bitwig is unrivaled. And now with CLAP, that is no longer just with Bitwig instruments, but any CLAP plugin that supports poly parameter modulation.

ACE for example (CLAP version) is now a powerful MPE that can do things that even a dedicated MPE synth like Equator cannot.

Cool stuff. My other DAW DP also set up MPE well, then an update screwed it up for about a month or two... It like I mentioned allows you to set upper and lower MPE state like the Linnstrument is built to do. It also out of the door supported true channel recording in MPE, so not just for MPE but other things etc. MOTU are ambivalent about CLAP right now though, they're not convinced yet that it's going to stay around, I plan on bothering them about it until they do.

Definitely need to check out ACE and U-He's CLAP versions.

[MRG123]

First time to this Forum and so I'm not sure exactly where I should be posting this question but hopefully someone will redirect it as necessary (thanks!)
My question is why do some vst's (particularly Ample Sound Guitars) zero their volume on the instrument as soon as I start the play transport in my DAW and how do I get them to retain the volume I've set them at?

[jules99]

Yeah, that’s a question for the beginner's section, as this has nothing to do with MPE.

Regarding your problem, it might have a multitude of causes. Accidental volume automation might be one, low velocity values another.

[Boy Wonder]

I demo'd Fluid Chords in Cubase 12. It's interesting how it works by identifying MPE VSTi's and loading them. At first, I didn't hear any difference, then I realized I had to activate MPE in the synth I wanted to use.

Which begs the question: Is Fluid Chords a software MPE controller?

[jules99]

It seems to, yes. As MPE controllers are still hard to come by and big names like Novation, Arturia or Akai don't seem to be in any rush to implement it in their devices, software solutions like this seem to make some sense until they do.

It's baffling that MPE has still not caught on as much as it potentially could. I slowly get the impression that the big manufacturers have turned their attention to MIDI 2.0 and its possibilities and MPE will never really be big.

[Tj Shredder]

No need to wait for big players, just get a LinnStrument or Erae Touch or Seaboard(block) or Joué… You need to want it though. Best is to get your hands on a device to experience this immediate kind of sound control. I will never ever want a keyboard again, its just too boring…