Bitwig 5.2 BETA available

[pikey]

If you want a clean sine in polymer it's all about gain staging to avoid the clipping, turn down the voice gain and boost the output gain to compensate (which is post clipping), you will also probably need to put a tool into post fx to boost it further. The good news is you can just save this as the default setup and effectively forget that polymer has clipping enabled.

I'm still of the opinion that it would be nice to have a clipping option + threshold available for polymer like on the grid output module, although I also think a synth having soft clipping or a limiter enabled by default is generally better than not having it.

Anyway, beta 2 is nice and all, although I'm getting some occasional crashing still but bitwig reached out to me directly after I submitted some crash reports to further investigate so I have confidence they will figure it out. There are probably a bunch of esoteric GPU bugs that only affect certain hardware they are having to put work arounds in for, I don't envy them for that.

[Jac459]

Just turn off "soft clipping"

Means you have to convert it into a Poly Grid, no??

Until now I didn´t find any method to change it in Polymer itself but perhaps I miss something...

I think you need to convert to polymer indeed in order to disable the soft clipping.

I have been thinking about your assertion that creating a pure sine is an absolute necessary function of every normally constituted synth...
I am actually not so sure about that.

So I checked our classic synths, the famous "virtual analog", to see if they propose a clean synth. If proposing a sine is such a "classic" and "basic" feature, I guess all VA should propose that.

Actually, none of my few VA propose a clean sine.
DIVA doesn't propose a sine.
The Legend doesn't propose a sine.
Obsession doesn't propose a sine.
Then I checked my model 15 emulator, from these little beginners from MOOG.
They DO have a sine but to my (small) surprise, Model 15 propose a sine with A TON of overtones... Much more than Polymer actually (maybe a reason why it also sound often better).

Then I thought about the usage of a Sine inside a signal path. We all do that actually. At one moment, in order to add a bit of floor to a bass we are creating, it is very nice to add a sine in your sound. Polymer definitely proposes that. It proposes that at the very beginning of the signal path, in order to be blended in the sound we are creating. And it is perfectly fine this way.

So at the end of the day. Am I convinced by your point than soft clipping is a "disastrous and stupid bad decision" ?

No. I think I was wrong when I was saying that it is a functional bug. It isn't.
They made a soft clipping to colour nicely their sound, it is a choice. And I do agree with this choice. In particular when it is so easy to get a pure sine in Bitwig environment.

[Dionysos]

The first thing I do after choosing a sine oscillator is try to add overtones.

Bitwig has dozens of ways for producing one or many clean sine waves (Organ!), so dying on the hill that Polymer also needs to do that – and without any tweaking please otherwise it doesn't count – is just... tiring.

[Jac459]

Going back on topic, I feel I found a bug or at least something not working as I would expect.

Using the Compressor+ on extreme settings, I am trying to do parallel compression by nesting the compressor+ inside an FX Layer and use the mix knob... That is the way I normally use to mix a wet and dry signal.

In this case, it seems that there is a very slight delay in one of the path (I suppose the Compressor+) and I have a kind of subtle phase cancellation issue. Do any of you noticed something like that ?

[Trancit]

I have been thinking about your assertion that creating a pure sine is an absolute necessary function of every normally constituted synth...
I am actually not so sure about that.

So I checked our classic synths, the famous "virtual analog", to see if they propose a clean synth. If proposing a sine is such a "classic" and "basic" feature, I guess all VA should propose that.

Actually, none of my few VA propose a clean sine.
DIVA doesn't propose a sine.
The Legend doesn't propose a sine.
Obsession doesn't propose a sine.
Then I checked my model 15 emulator, from these little beginners from MOOG.
They DO have a sine but to my (small) surprise, Model 15 propose a sine with A TON of overtones... Much more than Polymer actually (maybe a reason why it also sound often better).

Then I thought about the usage of a Sine inside a signal path. We all do that actually. At one moment, in order to add a bit of floor to a bass we are creating, it is very nice to add a sine in your sound. Polymer definitely proposes that. It proposes that at the very beginning of the signal path, in order to be blended in the sound we are creating. And it is perfectly fine this way.

So at the end of the day. Am I convinced by your point than soft clipping is a "disastrous and stupid bad decision" ?

No. I think I was wrong when I was saying that it is a functional bug. It isn't.
They made a soft clipping to colour nicely their sound, it is a choice. And I do agree with this choice. In particular when it is so easy to get a pure sine in Bitwig environment.

First of all I agree that it´s a matter of taste...

Second I disagree that having this soft clipping (which btw reaches far more down below in the volume as normal clipping as you have to lower a sine wave by -10.8db to get rid of the effect... so it´s more saturation than actual soft clipping) cannot easily be turned off which is actually my main point in the direction of stupid decisions...

Third, your approach to classic synths is wrong... they do not provide seperate sine waves because of good reasons...
Hardware components were at this time much more expensive and harder to get than some lines of code and as you basically can turn nearly any wave into a sine by using the filter they went just the more cost-effective route by not offering it by default...
This doesn´t mean that a sine wave was never used at this time...

Polymer isn´t a hardware emulation so one is better of to compare it to other digital synths not emulating special parts...
When you do so you will not find a single digital softsynth not providing a pure sine wave by default without doing anything but choosing it... and this is the second part I am refering to...

You like to colour your sine wave... fine... do so... you can do it in any softsynth out there very easily as well and if not just reach out for a plugin which will give you much more options about the colorization anyway...
The developer though has actually to respect not just the wishes of people thinking like you/them...
If a wide range of different people most likely are using my product, it´s imho a stupid decision to force everybody in one direction...

Yes, you can change it...
Yes, there are always alternatives...

But why do I have to create the need for alternatives and workarounds as the developer...
Why can´t I just do my work a bit more flexible and make it easier for people not wanting to go the same way like (perhaps) I do???

This is my point...

[Jac459]

I have been thinking about your assertion that creating a pure sine is an absolute necessary function of every normally constituted synth...
I am actually not so sure about that.

So I checked our classic synths, the famous "virtual analog", to see if they propose a clean synth. If proposing a sine is such a "classic" and "basic" feature, I guess all VA should propose that.

Actually, none of my few VA propose a clean sine.
DIVA doesn't propose a sine.
The Legend doesn't propose a sine.
Obsession doesn't propose a sine.
Then I checked my model 15 emulator, from these little beginners from MOOG.
They DO have a sine but to my (small) surprise, Model 15 propose a sine with A TON of overtones... Much more than Polymer actually (maybe a reason why it also sound often better).

Then I thought about the usage of a Sine inside a signal path. We all do that actually. At one moment, in order to add a bit of floor to a bass we are creating, it is very nice to add a sine in your sound. Polymer definitely proposes that. It proposes that at the very beginning of the signal path, in order to be blended in the sound we are creating. And it is perfectly fine this way.

So at the end of the day. Am I convinced by your point than soft clipping is a "disastrous and stupid bad decision" ?

No. I think I was wrong when I was saying that it is a functional bug. It isn't.
They made a soft clipping to colour nicely their sound, it is a choice. And I do agree with this choice. In particular when it is so easy to get a pure sine in Bitwig environment.

First of all I agree that it´s a matter of taste...

Second I disagree that having this soft clipping (which btw reaches far more down below in the volume as normal clipping as you have to lower a sine wave by -10.8db to get rid of the effect... so it´s more saturation than actual soft clipping) cannot easily be turned off which is actually my main point in the direction of stupid decisions...

If you are talking to me, I clearly said before that I agree that it can't be easily turned off. Then you tell me you disagree because ... it can't be easily turned off. I guess you read too fast.

Third, your approach to classic synths is wrong... they do not provide seperate sine waves because of good reasons...

I am not saying it isn't for good reasons. The reasons are pretty obvious. I am just saying that, even for good reasons, it isn't standard.
And the model 15 example prove that constructors will choose clipping as BW did.

Hardware components were at this time much more expensive and harder to get than some lines of code and as you basically can turn nearly any wave into a sine by using the filter they went just the more cost-effective route by not offering it by default...
This doesn´t mean that a sine wave was never used at this time...

Obviously.

Polymer isn´t a hardware emulation so one is better of to compare it to other digital synths not emulating special parts...
When you do so you will not find a single digital softsynth not providing a pure sine wave by default without doing anything but choosing it... and this is the second part I am refering to...

This, I agree with you. But it was to counterbalance the assertion that any synth should absolutely have a pure sine or it is not a good synth. I think it isn't true and over-exaggerated. So, admittedly, I exaggerated on the opposite way. The truth is in between.

You like to colour your sine wave... fine... do so... you can do it in any softsynth out there very easily as well and if not just reach out for a plugin which will give you much more options about the colorization anyway...
The developer though has actually to respect not just the wishes of people thinking like you/them...
If a wide range of different people most likely are using my product, it´s imho a stupid decision to force everybody in one direction...

Yes, you can change it...
Yes, there are always alternatives...

But why do I have to create the need for alternatives and workarounds as the developer...
Why can´t I just do my work a bit better and make it easier for people not wanting to go the same way like (perhaps) I do???

This is my point...

So to conclude, this whole super long discussion is because one of the numerous synths of BWS, has soft clipping on, which we both agree make sense, and it should be easier to disable it (on which we both agree also).

So I DO stand with my comment that if the main grief against Bitwig is that one of the synth has a usability imperfection on the soft clipping suppression on one of the synths and a lack of choice on the signal oversampling of some of the effects, that means that it is a freaking good product with a better than awesome quality. Congratulations BWS !!!

[pdxindy]

In this case, it seems that there is a very slight delay in one of the path (I suppose the Compressor+) and I have a kind of subtle phase cancellation issue. Do any of you noticed something like that ?

Comp+ has some latency... so it sounds like it is not correctly compensated. File a bug report!

[Jac459]

In this case, it seems that there is a very slight delay in one of the path (I suppose the Compressor+) and I have a kind of subtle phase cancellation issue. Do any of you noticed something like that ?

Comp+ has some latency... so it sounds like it is not correctly compensated. File a bug report!

Bug report ?

Why ?


Kidding... I did already.

[Funk Dracula]

Going back on topic, I feel I found a bug or at least something not working as I would expect.

Using the Compressor+ on extreme settings, I am trying to do parallel compression by nesting the compressor+ inside an FX Layer and use the mix knob... That is the way I normally use to mix a wet and dry signal.

In this case, it seems that there is a very slight delay in one of the path (I suppose the Compressor+) and I have a kind of subtle phase cancellation issue. Do any of you noticed something like that ?

Using a test tone I can confirm this.

Using compressor+ the blue sine (compressor+ layer) is off phase.


Using regular compressor everything is compensated in phase. (blue sine is compressor)


The delay compensation is not correct with compressor+. Don't use it for parallel compression until it's fixed and report these findings to beta@Bitwig.com.

Good find!

[Jac459]

Going back on topic, I feel I found a bug or at least something not working as I would expect.

Using the Compressor+ on extreme settings, I am trying to do parallel compression by nesting the compressor+ inside an FX Layer and use the mix knob... That is the way I normally use to mix a wet and dry signal.

In this case, it seems that there is a very slight delay in one of the path (I suppose the Compressor+) and I have a kind of subtle phase cancellation issue. Do any of you noticed something like that ?

Using a test tone I can confirm this.

Using compressor+ the blue sine (compressor+ layer) is off phase.


Using regular compressor everything is compensated in phase. (blue sine is compressor)


The delay compensation is not correct with compressor+. Don't use it for parallel compression until it's fixed and report these findings to beta@Bitwig.com.

Good find!

Yeah, now I know why my transients were distroyed hehe.

Bug report done.

[Trancit]

If you are talking to me, I clearly said before that I agree that it can't be easily turned off. Then you tell me you disagree because ... it can't be easily turned off. I guess you read too fast.

No, I was refering to this:

No. I think I was wrong when I was saying that it is a functional bug. It isn't.
They made a soft clipping to colour nicely their sound, it is a choice. And I do agree with this choice. In particular when it is so easy to get a pure sine in Bitwig environment.

which sounds to me like it would be absolutely fine the way they did it... that´s what I meant with disagree...

[BobDog]

I have been thinking about your assertion that creating a pure sine is an absolute necessary function of every normally constituted synth...
I am actually not so sure about that.

So I checked our classic synths, the famous "virtual analog", to see if they propose a clean synth. If proposing a sine is such a "classic" and "basic" feature, I guess all VA should propose that.

Actually, none of my few VA propose a clean sine.
DIVA doesn't propose a sine.
The Legend doesn't propose a sine.
Obsession doesn't propose a sine.
Then I checked my model 15 emulator, from these little beginners from MOOG.
They DO have a sine but to my (small) surprise, Model 15 propose a sine with A TON of overtones... Much more than Polymer actually (maybe a reason why it also sound often better).

Then I thought about the usage of a Sine inside a signal path. We all do that actually. At one moment, in order to add a bit of floor to a bass we are creating, it is very nice to add a sine in your sound. Polymer definitely proposes that. It proposes that at the very beginning of the signal path, in order to be blended in the sound we are creating. And it is perfectly fine this way.

So at the end of the day. Am I convinced by your point than soft clipping is a "disastrous and stupid bad decision" ?

No. I think I was wrong when I was saying that it is a functional bug. It isn't.
They made a soft clipping to colour nicely their sound, it is a choice. And I do agree with this choice. In particular when it is so easy to get a pure sine in Bitwig environment.

First of all I agree that it´s a matter of taste...

Second I disagree that having this soft clipping (which btw reaches far more down below in the volume as normal clipping as you have to lower a sine wave by -10.8db to get rid of the effect... so it´s more saturation than actual soft clipping) cannot easily be turned off which is actually my main point in the direction of stupid decisions...
...

Soft clipping is saturation!

[lunardigs]

Two things I'd like:
1) be able to reorder audio ports in setup
2) set track monitoring default/behavior for audio and midi tracks upon arm

[lunardigs]

and another thing: a hotkey to close/open all plugin windows on the selected track

[Jac459]

and another thing: a hotkey to close/open all plugin windows on the selected track

This absolutely exists my friend.
You just need to configure it in the shortcut list (for me it is X).
And yes, I confirm that it is maybe my most used hotkey with D (track devices).